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#584079 - 10/07/08 01:19 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: Quest4BetterPop]
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RealMuso
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You're arguing with history, Bill. Despite all the melodic virtues on their first two albums, you can hear why Big Star never had any big hits.
They did have a hit. It was a TV theme in the 90's.
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#584089 - 10/07/08 01:46 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: Mr_Coffee]
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RealMuso
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From like the worst show ever made...
No argument there.
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#584096 - 10/07/08 01:57 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: knobtwist]
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sixelsix
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Related to this topic.....
I've always been fascinated by another MAJOR voice change: Justin Currie from Del Amitri. It always blows peoples minds when I play a song from their first album, and then something like "Last To Know". No one can believe it's the same singer.
I might have a thing or two to say about AC but wanted to acknowledge this. Yes, Currie's vocal style DID change considerably. I happen to really like that first record of theirs.
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#584127 - 10/07/08 03:01 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: Quest4BetterPop]
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Bill Lumbergh
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You're arguing with history, Bill. Despite all the melodic virtues on their first two albums, you can hear why Big Star never had any big hits.
Your problem is that you use the Billboard charts to determine the worth of music, or at least you overly weight chart performance to determine that worth. In Big Star's case, those first two records were released by Ardent Records, a tiny offshoot of a Memphis recording studio, a label that was distributed by Stax, which at the time was having a lot of problems getting its records into stores. For at least part of the time, Stax was distributed by CBS Records (the company Sony bought), and lesser Stax titles--i.e., ones not by Booker T & the M.G.s, or Albert King, or Isaac Hayes--just didn't get solicited. I never saw those Big Star records in stores; the only Ardent title I recall seeing was the Hot Dogs' Say What You Mean, a promo I bought at ASUOP Records in Stockton for something like a quarter.
The point is that if Big Star had been on Atlantic or Warner/Reprise or Elektra, or even Columbia or Epic, with the major-label promo behind them, those albums might have had a better chance at making an impact. There still were enough PDs and DJs in the early '70s who would have heard and added a song like "Thirteen," or "In the Street," or "Back of a Car" or "September Gurls."
It was rock writers who carried the flame until 1978, after the post-Atlantic Stax catalog got bought by Fantasy, and Fantasy's distributor in the UK, EMI, issued No. 1 Record and Radio City as a twofer, that I heard them and fell in love. Import distributor JEM already had issued Third/Sister Lovers on its domestic PVC label, but I didn't get into that record until after I'd absorbed the first two. But Fantasy U.S. didn't seem to care. They licensed the CD to Big Beat in the U.K. I remember talking to Terri Hinte and Phil Jones about putting them out, and they both said that Fantasy's metier was jazz, blues and R&B reissues, not rock.
Short form: Promotion and distribution has a lot to do with chart performance. Too much, really. Does the fact that Jessica Simpson's record is heavily marketed by Columbia Nashville make her "queen of country" (as MySpace was touting her) over, say, Neko Case, or name your favorite indie country goddess?
No. But in Quest4BetterChartPerformance's world, she would be.
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#584147 - 10/07/08 03:18 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: Bill Lumbergh]
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honkytonkbadonka
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Jody Stephens should have been a bigger pinup than david cassidy...have you seen the guy? other than wearing gloves when he plays, something I understand but makes it look like you're going to be powerlifting, one of the most solid, underrated drummers around...back to my first post, anyone care to comment on the rumor (I don't know where I read it so don't ask) that they shot alex up with speed before some of the earlier box tops stuff...I know I've read that before...anyone have the straight dope?
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#584171 - 10/07/08 03:48 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: Bill Lumbergh]
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The_Hound
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The point is that if Big Star had been on Atlantic or Warner/Reprise or Elektra, or even Columbia or Epic, with the major-label promo behind them, those albums might have had a better chance at making an impact.
True, but probably not the credit due their talent. Think of the Raspberries ... was that Capitol they were on? Very similar to Big Star in terms of style -- roughly same time period. Aside from "Go All the Way" and "Overnight Sensation" they didn't really have any blowout hits. The truth is Beatle-esque pop, as a chart-topper, was well on the way out by the time both bands ascended creatively. Even if Pete Hamm hadn't checked out, I recall seeing Badfinger's Ass in cut-out bins months after its release. I loved that stuff at the time, without fully recognizing how unpopular it was with the other kids in my neighborhood.
I know we can all point out numerous bands from that time and note their influence and brilliance ... but the truth is most weren't making it on the charts, major label or not. That made it all the nicer a surprise when a band like Squeeze broke through a few years later, who actually had the Beatle-esque sound, mixed with new wave influences.
Chilton veered off into very strange territory after Big Star (which I kind of like), and Eric Carmen went soft rock with "All By Myself." I look at bands like Big Star and The Raspberries as being the start of the power pop movement, and a continuation of an alternative rock scene to Top 40 pop that was around in many forms long before being recognized as such with all those indie bands in the 80s.
I hear what Quest is saying. Those Big Star songs are all great, sound like hits in our imaginary world where real talent is always rewarded, but stuff like that rarely broke through to the hit single level in the mid-70s.
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#584178 - 10/07/08 03:59 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: AllMemphisMusic]
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zookeeper
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I believe the Box Tops voice was Alex imitating Dan Penn.
Having produced both of them, I think my knowledge qualifies as first-hand.
Hey blatant plug, but All Memphis Music is featuring the new Dan Penn Cd this weekend. Once you hear it you'll think Eric Clapton has been listening to him for a long time. Nice CD Click here for All Memphis Music Enjoy! Plus we play a lot of Big Star, Boxtops, Dan Penn and so much more. Thanks Jon Tiven!
I love AllMemphisMusic.com
I find myself listening to it at work when the current flavor-of-the-months that I must deal with are about to make my head explode. It always restores my faith in music and allows me to dredge up the strength to continue to wade through the current musical muck.
Keep up the good work AMM.com
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#584183 - 10/07/08 04:05 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: The_Hound]
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RealMuso
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Aside from "Go All the Way" and "Overnight Sensation" they didn't really have any blowout hits.
Not true. "Tonight," "Ecstacy," "I Wanna Be With You" and "Let's Pretend" were all hit singles. "Overnight Sensation," alas, was not.
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#584184 - 10/07/08 04:05 PM
Re: Alex Chilton... One of Rock's Great Mysteries.
[Re: Bill Lumbergh]
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Quest4BetterPop
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Your problem is that you use the Billboard charts to determine the worth of music, or at least you overly weight chart performance to determine that worth.
I do consider chart performance to be a key indicator of pop music quality but it is by no means the only one. I start by listening and letting my own ears and judgment determine the worth of what I'm hearing. I also consider how well produced a song is, how much promotion it enjoyed, where it was heard, etc.
Historically, there has been a pretty good correlation between what my ears told me and the chart status of pop songs. There are always exceptions but the rule has served me well for nearly 40 years.
One example of an exception comes to mind: Marshall Crenshaw. Like many people, I loved his 1982 debut and was disappointed -- but not surprised -- when it didn't become a huge commercial hit. The songs are exceptional (my fave: Cynical Girl) but the production sounded very thin and demo-y and I suspect that, more than anything else, stood in the way of bigger commercial success. As every artist learns sooner or later, the public will never meet you halfway. They need their music as professionally produced as possible and if it's not, they won't be sold on it.
The point is that if Big Star had been on Atlantic or Warner/Reprise or Elektra, or even Columbia or Epic, with the major-label promo behind them, those albums might have had a better chance at making an impact. There still were enough PDs and DJs in the early '70s who would have heard and added a song like "Thirteen," or "In the Street," or "Back of a Car" or "September Gurls."
I agree that a bigger label with more money and promotional connections could only have helped Big Star. That said, I still don't hear any obvious big hits there despite all their melodic virtues. "September Gurls" comes the closest, to my ears.
It was rock writers who carried the flame until 1978, after the post-Atlantic Stax catalog got bought by Fantasy, and Fantasy's distributor in the UK, EMI, issued No. 1 Record and Radio City as a twofer, that I heard them and fell in love.
Yes, I too was first exposed to that twofer and enjoyed it immediately. I instantly understood what the fuss was about which was very refreshing after being disappointed by other alleged classics by other groups when I finally heard them.
Short form: Promotion and distribution has a lot to do with chart performance. Too much, really. Does the fact that Jessica Simpson's record is heavily marketed by Columbia Nashville make her "queen of country" (as MySpace was touting her) over, say, Neko Case, or name your favorite indie country goddess?No. But in Quest4BetterChartPerformance's world, she would be.
I agree with you except that I don't consider Jessica Simpson to be the queen of anything other than aggressive image marketing -- and Papa Joe probably handles that anyway. Everyone knows that if she were fat and ugly, there would be no career of any kind and the world wouldn't know her name.
_________________________
"I wouldn't even think of playing music if I was born in these times."
-- Bob Dylan, 2001
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